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EU law for non-discriminatory employment

Posted by legend_in_my_lunchtime-182603 - Created: 14 years ago
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10 replies (Showing replies: 1 to 10)

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Posted by Myop - 14 years ago

quote:since national legislation is supposed to implement EU legislationid=quote>I was under the impression that an EU law only came into effect in a member country when the parliament of that member country ratified the law into its national legislation. Are there not cases where national parliaments have not ratified some EU laws and that legislation therfeore does not apply in that country?Am I wrong in this?

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Posted by mike-179830 - 14 years ago

Pervinca: In brief. EU legislation does prevail over national legislation (since national legislation is supposed to implement EU legislation), but it's a lot easier to get national legistaltion implemented, in most caes.

In this instance, I was referring to French law, which should make things easier: check out the link I gave earlier (rummage around a little from this address: http://www.travail.gouv.fr/infos_pratiques/asp/details_pratiques.asp?Niveau1=1&Niveau2=7&Niveau3=34&Idfiche=196#2).

If that doesn't work, check out this INFOrmation Page on AngloINFO, for the EU ombudsman (or get a good lawyer):

http://riviera.angloinfo.com/information/1/euequal.asp

 

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Mike

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Posted by Pervinca - 14 years ago

Mike. Thanks for this info. I wouldn't know how to set about challenging this though, my morale being somewhere around the level of my ankles right now & my job expectations and enthusiasm  at the same level :( 

Does anyone know where I can get hold of EU legislation in this area? If there's an age limit to applying for some categories of  job (both in the public & private sectors)?   Surely teachers/translators should be allowed to keep going till they get, say, Alzheimer's or cerebral palsy... And does EU legislation prevail over National legislation..I admit my knowledge of EU laws is limited but I get the feeling that often in France they don't know much either & tend to favour their own laws.

Anyway, to be forewarned  is to be etc & when I've finished lying low licking my wounds &  have to venture forth into the fray again I intend to assemble some  legal ammo to defend myself a bit better.

BTW entirely agree with your sane, tolerant & civilized  observations on this thread: before sex discrimination laws (or any law threatening entrenched interests) there was agitation, protests, lobbying, and just think French women didn't get the vote till 1944 . Legislation doesn't change retrograde & selfish mentality, a slow process, but it's the first step.

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Posted by mike-179830 - 14 years ago

grima: while I have not, personally, travelled across the Atlantic on anything less civilised than an Boeing, I have spent a little time sailing on a Whitbread round-the-world challenger, discussing with the crew an environment which is much more intense, close and so forth than that of a pleasure yacht (an example: when the boat inverted in the Roaring Forties the person who was in the head at the time felt that their particular situation was less bad than that of the person in the galley, since the galley was full of chili con carne, while the head was merely full of...). The crew consisted of all ages and genders, occupying a space that was smaller than the average crew toilet on a superyacht, spending more time at sea in tougher circumstances; yet it was the ability to do the job that counted, not age or gender.

All industries that find it inconvenient to conform to laws that the majority of society deems essential try to claim that they are "different" in some way. Almost none are successful in pressing that claim. The openness of information that the Internet provides means that the yachting industry will come under more and more scrutiny, and will be required to justify its discrminatory practices. In my opinion it will fail. And if that means that boats have to install a disabled toilet or to devote more of their deck-space to staff quarters to permit a greater degree of gender non-discrimination, then so be it - that's exactly what has occurred in other industries (all of whom have kvetched about the inconvenience).

Many working practices in the yachting industry are, frankly, anachronistic. Arguing that they are "traditional" is, quite simply, a dog that won't hunt (a hundred years ago it was traditional to put childeren up chimneys, 40 years ago some US states banned sexual congress across the "color line", two traditions that we can well, IMO, do without). That they have lasted so long is a tribute to (or a condemnation of) the "closed" nature of the industry, but that's all changing: the amount of data being published every day on the Net is providing everyone from disgruntled employees to tax-deprived governments with all the ammo they need to go after the business. In a big way. Dayworkers, skippers' kickbacks, tax-avoidance, sex discrimination... take your pick.

I believe that, within a few years, (for example) skippers who run boats that employ people in an illegal fashion will lose their tickets and may well even be subject to more severe legal sanctions. The attitude of the responsible governments will simply be: if you can't sail across the Atlantic (say) in a way that supports legal employment, than you can't sail at all.

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Mike

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Posted by grima-192898 - 14 years ago

Mike I understand what you are saying and in allot of aspect there are similarities, but as anyone who has done an ocean crossing or any length of time at sea will tell you, it IS different, it doesn't even get close!  You are in a small area in which you cant get away, finding personal space is hard, days away from rescue in an emergency situation, the threat of bad weather with only a 7 mm steal hull between you and two miles of ice cold water below you which would sap all the heat out of your body and kill you in about 20 minutes! 

As you can see it is important to have a good crew, and coming back top the original thread, if that means advertising for a stewardess to help give companionship to another female crew member in an otherwise all male crew, you are hardly going to get strung up for it.  These law are not designed for this very new industry, they are for the majority of the working population.  I am the first to stand up for equal opportunities but you have to accept that there are exceptions in reality.

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Posted by mike-179830 - 14 years ago

grima: if you're in the middle of the Namib desert or the jungles of Borneo then you don't have much choice about carrying on, either. And that is then sort of situation in which all parties are living on top of one another.

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Mike

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Posted by grima-192898 - 14 years ago

Sorry Mike there all shaw based, completely different.  When your on a vessel crossing the Atlantic Ocean you cant hardly jump on a train and go home if it gets too much.

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Posted by mike-179830 - 14 years ago

Pervinca: age discrimination of the sort you describe is also illegal in France. Under certain circumstances, a job may specify a minimum age, but not a maximum one.

Grima: You ask "In what other civilian line of work..?". The film and TV industry (on location) is an excellent example. And it's one of the least "gender role relative" businesses out there (except for the cast, which provides one of the few areas in which EU law does allow for gender-specificity in job ads (Sarah Bernhard's famous one-legged performance of Hamlet notwithstanding). 

Based on the past history of the film industry, "these laws" do indeed stand up in a court of law.

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Mike

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Posted by grima-192898 - 14 years ago

I would just like to point something out to the people among us who do not in any way deviate from US and EU legislation regarding sex dissemination in the work place.

In what other civilian line of work does the employee have to not only work with their boss during the day, but also live together, eat, socialise, sleep, watch TV, share washroom facilities, laugh and cry together.

What I am trying to say is that working on a boat is a very confined and intense environment, that combined with long hours and the stress that is involved can wreak havoc on the strongest of personalities. 

These laws are not designed for this kind of profession, and there for in a court of law I would doubt would stand up, especially  in circumstances like employing another stewardess to give female companionship to another female crew member, in a crew of otherwise nine men and one woman.  This for me is the real world! 

BTW good thread legend in lunch break.

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Posted by Myop - 14 years ago

An employer, at the end of the day, will employ whoever he wants for whatever reason he wants. I don't want a bloke waxing my wife's thighs and I don't want to have to show my whatzit to a woman army recruiter.On the other hand, many people want the abolition of gender-discrimination and, in some specific cases they are probably right.But there are reasonable limits to what what is excessive, n'est ce pas?MikeP points out that we get "the idiots whom we voted into power". But if we voted for other ones (like ones who accept gender-discrimination as a fact of life) wouldn't just as many people think they too were idiots? One person's idiot is another person's guiding light.You can't please everyone. For that matter, when it comes to politics, it's hard enough pleasing anyone at all... no matter what you do.